Discutindo Sistemas – A Proficiência em Combate.

Posted: 21st setembro 2010 by Gun_Hazard in RPG
Tags: ,
Continuando o gancho de discutir mecânicas de Sistemas uma das coisas que sempre fico pensando é sobre mecânicas de proficiência em combates.

Entre os Exemplos comuns temos:

– Progressão única Constante. –
A progressão da evolução em combate é única, não importando qual o estilo de combate (Corpo-a-corpo, distância, etc), ou arma utilizada. EX: BBA (Bônus Base de Ataque) do D&D/D20; Tac0 do AD&D;
A vantagem é o fato dela representar uma única progressão o que torna as coisas bem mais simples, não importa qual a arma que se utilizar o personagem saberá utilizá-la da mesma forma.
O problema é que isto é só teoria em geral estes sistemas oferecem opções de especialização em um tipo de arma em especifico, ou se o jogador conseguir alguma arma com uma característica melhor ele invariavelmente irá usá-la sempre a menos que seja forçado por uma situação a ter de usar outra arma. Problema, entre aspas, pois na prática é o que realmente ocorre, se você é bom com uma arma, não irá querer usar outra a não ser que naquela situação seja mais vantajoso usar a outra.

– Progressão Variada –
Geralmente aqui entraremos em várias sub-categorias…
Progressão separada para ataques a distância ou corpo-a-corpo
Progressão separada por categoria de armas, (armas de haste, machados, lâminas médias, Laminas leves, arcos, etc)
Progressão especifica, direcionada a uma arma ou um grupo muito restrito de armas, por exemplo, proficiência somente em espadas curtas. Mas em geral há a possibilidade de se executar o teste para armas relacionadas com uma pequena penalidade.
A vantagem é um certo grau de realismo ao processo de aprendizado do manejo de armas, um cara que aprendeu a usar um machado, não necessariamente tem a mesma proficiência com uma lança ou uma besta. Outra vantagem está também na customização do personagem.
O problema é a falta de praticidade, levasse um tempo maior para se construir e pensar o personagem, pois você tem que tentar prever os problemas e como suas escolhas irão influenciar na resolução. Outro problema é dificultar a improvisação imagine o mais forte guerreiro do grupo totalmente impotente por ter perdido seu poderoso machado e ser um completo banana utilizando espadas que são as únicas armas a mão a disposição naquela situação…

Conclusão:
Cada proposta vai ver em um ou outro a sua vantagem, como já tinha discutido no texto passado sobre formas de evolução dos personagens, eu acredito que a progressão única é legal para sistemas de “Níveis” de personagem, já que a ideia é simplicidade no fazer ficha.
Já sistemas Simuladoristas, que geralmente usam a evolução por compra de valores, se beneficiam de progressão variada, seja a por categoria, ou especifica. Pois o personagem tem o controle de quão bem ele deseja ser em combate e quais características ele irá sacrificar para se tornar melhor que os demais em combate.

E vocês como veem as progressões de combates e quais as experiências que tem sobre elas?

  1. Mr Red disse:

    Eu mantive, na minha adaptação (ainda em testes) o BBA para ambos os tipos de ataques, tanto à distância quanto ao corpo a corpo. Deixei sobre a Força e Destreza a responsabilidade de mostrar em qual tipo de ataque o personagem é melhor. Eu dificultei, em um certo ponto de vista, o acesso às armas. Como desenvolvo a progressão racial, cada raça possui uma lista de armas próprias, exclusivas, que funcionam como se fossem exóticas para outras raças. Claro que existe uma lista geral de armas comuns, para qualquer raça.

    Outra coisa que fiz, foi progredir talentos de proficiência em combate, como FOCO EM ARMA, que pode ser adquirido normalmente e, com o passar dos níveis, progredido com o aumento dos bônus de +1 para +2, ao passar de nível, depois de +2 para +3, no próximo, e assim por diante, com um limite, lógico, que é o Modificador utilizado para o ataque (Mod Força para CC, Mod Destreza para AD). A progressão exige gasto de XP como forma de treinamento. Achei bacana.

    Vai um exemplo:
    Personagem 7º nível
    Humano 4/Guerreiro 3 – Força 16/+3 / Destreza 12/+1

    BBA +6/+1
    Talentos relacionados à sua arma preferida Espada Bastarda
    Foco em Arma (+1) adquirida no primeiro nível de guerreiro;
    Foco em Arma (+2) progredido com gasto de 450XP (2º nível de guerreiro);
    Foco em Arma (+3) progredido com gasto de 900XP (3º nível de guerreiro).

    Para ataques à distância, ele soma bônus de +7/+2
    Para ataques corpo a corpo, com bastarda, bônus de +12/+7

  2. Gun Hazard disse:

    Mr Red achei bacana sua idéia, lembra um pouco o que foi feito com o Iron Heroes, mas lá era feito com níveis de talentos parecido com o M&M fez com Graduações nos Feitos Heróicos.

    Eu acredito que este uso de XP deve dar mesmo esta sensação que o personagem está gastando parte do seu aprendizado para aperfeiçoar seus talentos.

    Minha dúvida é: Estes bonus não geram desequilibrio à curto e médio prazo? Ou há um método para evitar sobrecarga de acumulo de bônus?

    Por exemplo quando estava testando o Pathfinder, o Maestria em Combate do Guerreiro eu informava ao jogador que não acumularia com bônus de arma mágica. Assim o Guerreiro não seria tão dependente de armas mágicas, ele poderia trocar livremente sua Espada Longa por uma Bastarda sem o receio de abrir mão da estimada arma mágica, pois na prática seus bônus seriam equivalentes, as vantagens das armas mágicas seriam, para os que não são guerreiros, as caracteristicas especiais, e a rredução de dano de criaturas mágicas. Funcionou agradávelmente bem, sem gerar desequilibrios devido ao acúmulo de bônus.

  3. Mr Red disse:

    Bom, primeiro a evolução depende da progressão de nível e o gasto de XP atrasa esta progressão. Além do mais, os talentos tornam o personagem muito mais fatal com a especialidade escolhida, mas ainda o deixa frágil do ponto de vista de CA e PVs.

    Ainda existe a questão da dependência que o personagem cria a um determinado tipo de equipamento ou manobra para obter sucesso em seus ataques. Perder a arma, quebrar a arma, não realizar manutenções, deixam o personagem “indefeso”. A progressão do talento fortalece muito, mas, a dependência criada acaba valorizando Ofícios de armeiro, armadureiro, artesão, e outros, para manutenção, além de manobras como Separar, Desarmar, Agarrar e Imobilizar, para evitar o uso dessas armas e manobras favorecidas pela progressão de Talentos.

    Jogadores da minha mesa descobriram que Agarrar, Imobilizar, Usar Venenos, Armadilhas, enfim, o combate indireto, às vezes é mais eficaz que a luta direta. Assim, eles conseguem superar desafios muito superiores a eles, mas, têm que tomar cuidado redobrado, pois adversários também podem usar estes artifícios, inclusive os mais fracos.

  4. Elton pereira do nascimento disse:

    Eu jogo Gurps, tudo muito diferente, mais existe sim esse lance de dependencia de um certo tipo de arma, o guerreiro prodigio da espada nh21 dx 16 qunado perde sua espada mal tem força pra segurar um machado e n sabe oq fazer com uma lança, a sua dx define o pré definido de armas, ex lança dx media = dx-2 1 ponto ele usaria lança rolando com 14, e o dano seria totalmente diferente e menor, sem contar q so daria um atake por ser pré definido enquanto com a espada ele dava d 4 a 5 atakes, e o pior e usar arma improvisada, tipo axei um pedaço de pau no chao vou bater com ele, dx -5 apenas um atake, um cara pra ter 16 na dx tenq ser teoricamente forte basicamente uma fixa d torno d 150pt imagina uma fixa d 100 q um cara tem 12 na dx e perde sua espada¹ oq ele faz agora? corre?? deveria fkar + brando o lance d similiaridade com armas afinal um cara q n tem espada e pega uma lança e so usala como basto teoricamente seria quase a mesma coisa, em tese^^

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